Curt
Weiss has spent over thirty-five years working in the media industry.
As “Lewis King” he was one of New York’s
premier drummers in the 1980’s playing with major-label artists such as the
Rockats and Beat Rodeo.
He is currently
a television producer and writer.
"Stranded In The Jungle – Jerry Nolan’s Wild Ride – ATale of Drugs, Fashion, the New York Dolls and Punk Rock", Curt’s biography of Jerry Nolan, the drummer of the legendary New
York Dolls, is published by Backbeat Books.
PML: How did you get
into music?
CW: I saw the Beatles
on the Ed Sullivan show when I was 4 years old, and that pretty much changed my
life. The next year, after seeing HELP,
I decided I wanted to play the drums. I was
lucky enough to grow up with all the great radio of the 60s, and I was also very
fortunate that my parents and schools encouraged my musical education.
PML: So you had formal musical training?
CW: I had some formal training
but most of my education came from playing along to records. The rudiments and jazz training had their
benefits, but they didn’t really teach me how to play rock and roll. That came from records. I went to the Berklee School of Music in
Boston for all of a semester and 3 weeks. I really hated it there. Seeing Elvis Costello and the Attractions on
my 18th birthday convinced me to drop out. I stayed in Boston through the summer of ’78
and was lucky enough to work in a restaurant that was next door to a sleazy
club called the Rat, which was Boston’s CBGB. I saw New
York based bands there like the Dictators, Helen Wheels, and the Cramps. I also saw the Nuns from San Francisco, and
great local bands like La Peste, DMZ and the Atlantics. There was a nicer club called the Paradise
where I saw the original Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie, Mink DeVille, the
Dead Boys, Robert Gordon with Link Wray, and Lou Reed. It was a great time.
PML: When did first see Jerry
Nolan play?
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| Jerry Nolan |
CW: Besides seeing him on TV
with the Dolls, it was probably at one of the Sid Vicious shows. I moved back to NYC in September ’78, and those
shows were that month at Max's Kansas City. But by ’80 I had met people at the Soho Weekly
News who introduced me to the Rockats and the rockabilly scene. I started to go to their shows, which is how I
first got drawn to Jerry who, at the time, was their drummer. He was fantastic.
PML: Why did you decide to write his
biography?
CW: From seeing him perform,
meeting people around him, and knowing his history, I felt his was a
fascinating, untold story. He was in two
of the most influential and infamous bands of the period: The New York Dolls
and The Heartbreakers. He’d played with
Johnny Thunders, Richard Hell, Sid Vicious, Jayne (Wayne) County, Bette Midler,
Billy Squier and Suzi Quatro. He’d been
on the Anarchy Tour and was either at or playing CBGBs early on. He was at the center of the punk craze as it
exploded in England. He knew people in
the Ramones, Blondie, the Sex Pistols and the Clash. His punk rock credentials were as authentic as
anyone’s. But he also didn’t have the
success or longevity that some of the others I mentioned did, and that added an
element of pathos to his story. And there
was nothing like seeing him play live. I
thought his story should be told.
PML: How long did Stranded
take to write?
CW: About 10 years, mostly due
to not being in a hurry and not knowing anything about the business of books. I started in 2006, spent a few years searching
for people, and archival materials. I’d
take time off to live my life, and then come back to it.
PML: How did you
proceed?
CW: Each person I’d interview
would often connect me to other people or give me encouragement to keep
going.
PML: Were most people willing to speak about Jerry?
CW: A number of people didn’t want to talk, presumably because they
were tired of talking about Punk Rock for 30 plus years or didn’t want to be
associated with Jerry. Plus there were people
who, after realizing I wasn’t going to write the book they wanted written,
pulled out. Some people seem to have a lot invested in perpetuating myths.
PML: Meaning…?
CW: There are people who like to
think of themselves as the sole experts on Punk Rock or the Dolls, or Thunders
or Jerry. They think that if they knew
Jerry or Johnny for some period of time that they have the inside track on what
made them tick. It’s their own little
cottage industry as well as something their whole self-worth is wrapped up in. But Jerry was an addict, and as wonderful,
talented and charming as he could be, as an addict he had one priority: meeting
the needs of his addiction. To do that,
he would say or do just about anything. So he used just about everyone at one
time or another. That includes his
mother, and all the women that loved him. People often don’t want to admit that to
themselves. So the Jerry people think
they knew is often not the real or complete Jerry. That idea is very threatening to those people.
But I was writing a biography, not a
hagiography. And I also never promised
to write the book that someone else wanted. That’s why my name’s on it. If someone else wants to tell the story
differently, I say, “Have at it.” When
people say, “That can’t be true! That wasn’t the Jerry I knew!” my response is
“Thank you.” Isn’t the point of a
biography to reveal things to the reader they didn’t know beforehand?
PML: So who opted out?
CW: Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols didn’t want to be interviewed. Richard Hell sent one short e-mail which ended
with something like “don’t contact me about this anymore.” Mick Jones of the Clash seemed to have a bout
of amnesia when I asked him some questions. John Lydon ended up threatening me with
“litigation.”
PML: Why am I not surprised?
CW: As I spoke to him “between” his two books, I like to think that I
may have had something to do with changing his story about Jerry in his 2nd
book.
PML: You did manage to pin down Sex Pistol Glen Matlock…
CW: Yes, but Paul Cook and Paul Simenon where just unreachable. Debbie Harry, Willy DeVille and Bette Midler
wouldn’t agree to be interviewed, although I did run into Debbie at a memorial
and she was actually very sweet and friendly. Sylvain ended up coming through
after 5 or 6 years of trying, and he was great. David Johansen too, although only for a few
questions via e-mail. Still, his contributions were priceless.
PML: I was wondering whether you
spoke to Terry Chimes (drummer on the first Clash album) who often sat in for
Jerry when he was ‘indisposed”?
CW: He was another one I reached out to who never
responded. But I was actually more
interested in finding Rob Harper, the drummer for the Clash on the Anarchy
Tour. Drummers are used to sitting,
watching, and observing, particularly other drummers. No luck.
PML: For all that, it’s a very
complete, detailed biography. Was it
difficult to organise all that material?
CW: I had first approached it as
an oral history: a series of quotes strung together to tell a story. PLEASE KILL ME is done in that style. Studs Terkel, Jean Stein & George Plimpton
also famously wrote oral histories. So,
when I switched over to a narrative, it was all laid out from beginning to end.
It was a great guide.
PML: The first chapters are very
evocative. You really capture the
atmosphere of New York in the early 60's ‒ the gangs, a 13 year old Jerry being
tutored by jazz great Gene Krupa...
CW: It’s all background. How Jerry became Jerry.
PML:
I was
intrigued by the pages about your romantic interest in Jerry’s girlfriend,
Lesley Vinson. Given Jerry’s street gang
background and that he wasn’t exactly easy going, weren't you taking a risk?
CW: People told me he was incredibly jealous. The book has stories of his girlfriends
Michelle and Esther which illustrate it. But I never really flirted with Lesley or made
a move on her. She was about 6 or 7
years older than me, and after her relationship with Jerry ended, she always
seemed to be dating someone from the Soho News. Also, by the end of her relationship with
Jerry, things had deteriorated so much he often wasn’t there. He would disappear for long periods of time
chasing drugs or money. In fact, I was
disappointed when he was out of the band and her life. I wanted a chance to see him some more.
PML: How did you go about getting Stranded
published?
CW: It wasn’t until 2013 that I
went to a writer’s conference and pitched to agents, and realized that I had to
write something called a proposal. I
spent the next 6-12 months working on that, and when I had a version I was
happy with, I sent it off to several of the agents who showed interest.
PML:
How did it
end up with Backbeat?
CW: One agent was a fan of the
Replacements who in turn were big fans of Johnny Thunders. He ended up representing me. He finally got me the deal with Backbeat in
2015, and I handed in my first manuscript in September of 2016. Over the next 6 months or so I worked with a
number of editors and the book was released about year afterwards.
PML: Jerry’s was a sad life… Wasn’t it harrowing spending so much time
with him?
CW: Between, the Dolls, the
Heartbreakers, Sid, Johnny, and his own death, I knew Jerry’s story was a
tragedy before I started working on the book. I knew what I was getting into, so it wasn’t a
surprise. I was more concerned about
getting at the truth and getting it right.
 |
| Rockats: Jerry (left) |
PML: Is there anything to be
learned from his life?
CW: The most obvious is: Don’t use heroin. If you’re an addict get
help. But Jerry had other emotional
issues which probably made him more prone to addiction, in particular never knowing
his real father, and being abandoned by the next two father figures he had. He probably should have had counselling when
he was a kid. Jerry also didn’t like to
admit he was wrong and found it very difficult to apologize for anything, which
in turn made many of his relationships difficult. He also had difficulty admitting when he
didn’t know something, like how to tune drums well, particularly in the studio.
This affected his recordings. So the lesson is, learn to admit when you’re
wrong or don’t know something. You can’t
learn if you can’t admit you don’t know everything.
PML: That said, even without drugs, it’s difficult to imagine The New
York Dolls or The Heartbreakers hitting the top of the charts…
CW: He would have been more successful if he hadn’t become an addict. There’s a part of the book where I note all of
the bands that knew Jerry and loved the Dolls, needed drummers and how none of
them called him. If he hadn’t been known
as a junkie, they probably would have.
PML: How did Jerry influence your own music?
CW: In 1980 & 81, he was
probably who I emulated more than anyone except Ringo. I wanted to look like him, move like him, and
swing like him. He was so impressive on
stage. He also taught me that a drummer should drive the band and keep the band
centered. You’re the train and the
track. Everyone else needs to climb on.
PML: You took over from him when he left the Rockats…
CW: After he left the band they
tried another drummer who didn’t work out, and in March of ’81 I joined them. I stayed with them through August of ’82.
 |
| Rockats: Curt (left) |
PML: Who else were you playing
with?
CW: Through the 80’s I played
with former Rockat Tim Scott McConnel, the Vipers, Beat Rodeo, Elliott Murphy,
Carmaig de Forest, and George Usher’s House of Usher. I also played with members of the B-52s, the
Violent Femmes, & the Modern Lovers.
PML: Which other drummers do you
enjoy listening to?
CW: The Beatles and Ringo were always number one. But I also loved Ian Paice from Deep Purple
and John Bonham from Led Zeppelin. Sorry
if that breaks the hearts of punk rock purists, but credit should go where
credit is due. Pete Thomas from Elvis
Costello’s Attractions was also phenomenal. His playing on This Year’s Model is really as
good as it gets. I saw him on TV with
Jake Bugg 2 or 3 years ago and he’s still fantastic. In my late teens and early twenties, I started
to go backwards as far as the roots of my musical influences and discovered
Panama Francis and Earl Palmer. Francis
was a top New York R&B studio drummer who played on many early Atlantic hits
with Big Joe Turner, Ray Charles and Lavern Baker, after playing with people
like Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington. He’s
on “Jim Dandy,” “Splish Splash,” “Smoke Gets In Your Eyes,” “Calendar Girl,”
“The Wanderer,” “Big Girls Don’t Cry,” and “Prisoner of Love.” The guy had exemplary swing, and could just do
the simplest of things to lift a chorus or add drama to a song. And Earl Palmer played on the Little Richard
and Fats Domino hits out of New Orleans as well as some Eddie Cochran stuff
like “Somethin’ Else” which has those explosive cymbal crashes. Plus tons of Phil Spector hits. Francis and Palmer both had jazz roots and
applied them to R&B to really create the foundations of rock and roll
drumming. They’re the bedrock. And it just happens to be the stuff that Jerry
grew up on too.
PML: Will you be writing another
biography some time?
CW: I’m working on a book about a father who is nearing the end of his
life and may not be deserving of compassion and love, and the struggles his
children go through in offering it. It has nothing to do with music, but man
does not live by bread alone.
PML: Thanks very much for this,
Curt. One last question: What do you do in television?
CW: Make a living. I can make you a mean
spreadsheet and pivot table.
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